S05E108 Language & Identity as a Korean American with Sasha Rhee

Cultural identity exists in the spaces between languages, generations, and countries. When Sasha joins her father for this candid conversation, they unravel what it means to grow up Korean American through their distinct generational lenses.

Sasha, a third-generation Korean American with suprising Korean reading and speaking abilities, proudly embraces her heritage while acknowledging its complexities. Her father takes a different stance—having consciously distanced himself from certain Korean traditions he found restrictive growing up. Their dialogue opens a fascinating window into how immigrant families navigate cultural preservation across generations.

The conversation travels through unexpected territory: how the Korean language itself encodes hierarchy, making it impossible for children to argue with parents as equals; the traditional family genealogy book that's meant to pass through sons, not daughters; and the delicate balance of maintaining cultural touchpoints like birthday celebrations and food traditions while letting go of more restrictive practices.

What emerges is a thoughtful exploration of belonging. Is being "Korean enough" about language fluency, cultural knowledge, or something deeper? How do families decide which traditions to preserve and which to modify? When Sasha shares her plans for raising future children, she reveals how each generation must create their own relationship with heritage—keeping what resonates while making space for new cultural identities to emerge.

Whether you're navigating your own cultural hyphenation or curious about how immigrant identities evolve across generations, this episode offers a warm, honest look at the beautiful complexity of Korean American experience. Subscribe now and join our conversation about the cultures that shape us and the choices that define us.

#KoreanCulture #LearnKorean #KoreanAmerican #HeritageAndTradition #PodcastLife #CulturalIdentity #FamilyHeritage #AsianAmerican #BotoxAndBurpees #podcast @botoxandburpeespodcast

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S05E108 Language & Identity as a Korean American with Sasha Rhee

Transcript

[00:00:00]

Sam Rhee: Welcome to another episode of Botox and Burpees. I'm here with my ever present podcast guest star

Sasha Rhee, welcome back Sasha.

Sasha Rhee: Hello. Thank you for having me.

Sam Rhee: Yes. Today we're gonna talk about something that's a little different, um, probably a little more personalized. It's about the Korean language and growing up in America and you know, dealing with. Learning the Korean language or not learning the Korean language as the case may be and, and sort of how our experiences.

Are with that. I am someone who was born in the United States, but my parents moved to the United States from South Korea about a year or two before I was born. You obviously were born to two parents who had grew up in the United States, me and um, Susan. So, uh, obviously our perspectives on this are a little bit different.

So to start off, let's, uh, talk about. Your knowledge of the Korean language, [00:01:00] um, and how good are you in terms or comfortable are you about speaking Korean?

Sasha Rhee: So everyone that I meet who's like your, like, like you, like the child of Korean immigrants, like all my friends at like Duke, who are like that generation, they all say the same phrase, which is like, you're really good at Korean for like a third generation kid.

Which,

Sam Rhee: so most of them have parents that

Sasha Rhee: who immigrated from Korea. Okay. So they're like you. Okay. Because I guess the way it works is like first generation is you're the first generation to live in America. Okay. And then second and then third. So I third. So

Sam Rhee: I'm second. Yeah. And so they're telling you for third generation, you're pretty good at Korean?

Sasha Rhee: Yeah. Like some of 'em are really surprised because I happen to know like a lot of slang, I know a lot. I like, I, I like I'm up to date with like. The curve, the common, like the commoner Korean, like just how people speak usually. But in terms of like my actual speaking abilities, I can read and write fluently, which a lot of people are surprised by.

'cause usually it's the reverse when it comes to people learning a language and then my understanding is not bad and my speaking is not good. My grammar's like horrible.

Sam Rhee: So what do you [00:02:00] mean by what level is it? Like are you at a, I

Sasha Rhee: would say in terms of reading and writing, I'm fluent

Sam Rhee: like a third grade level at a fifth grade.

Like a high school level for reading, writing. Yeah.

Sasha Rhee: That's like I can. My writing is like at a high school, like middle school level.

Sam Rhee: Oh, get out.

Sasha Rhee: My writing's really good and my reading is like, perfect. I can read for as long as you need me to.

Sam Rhee: Okay. So

Sasha Rhee: my reading, I'm, I promise you I'm very literate. Like I could read for days and days and days 'cause how many combinations are there?

All

Sam Rhee: right. I'm pulling out a Korean, uh, text on like philosophy. Let's dig. Example philosophy.

Sasha Rhee: I will not understand what I'm reading, but I could read it for days.

Sam Rhee: Okay. And then your,

Sasha Rhee: um, my comprehension is like. Advanced elementary, like middle school, I wanna say. And then my speaking is like a kindergartner, which is when I stopped Korean school, so.

Sam Rhee: Hmm. Okay. What kind of slang words do you use all the time in Korean?

Sasha Rhee: Well, I don't use them, but I know them. Like for instance, like in Korea, they really like iced Americanos. It's like no matter the season, and so they call it like, ah, ah, like. Ice de like the two, the first [00:03:00] syllable of each one. That like, there's like, which means like awesome, like horror, which means like, whoa, like,

Sam Rhee: and where'd you learn all of this?

Langy Korean from

Sasha Rhee: K-Pop. So

Sam Rhee: did you learn all of your Korean from K-Pop?

Sasha Rhee: So obviously you know this, but So like my mom's, my maternal grandmother, like raised, like, didn't raise me, but she was around the house a lot because both my parents worked when I was younger and like my mom would travel. My dad obviously go to the office, so I first picked up Korean from her, like mom has like.

Anecdotes in that journal that you guys wrote when I was like two, saying like, I think Sasha is confusing Korean and English. 'cause she speaks, I think she's speaking a little bit of Korean at like preschool and whatever. Mm-hmm. So I first picked it up through grandma. Mm-hmm. And then. You guys sent me to Korean school for like five years.

So I did Korean school. And

Sam Rhee: that was from when to when? Like what grades?

Sasha Rhee: I studied at the same kindergarten level the entire time. I think it was like five to 10, I wanna say. Okay. Like four to eight maybe? Yeah, four to nine.

Sam Rhee: Yeah. So

Sasha Rhee: I did Korean school for a while and that's what [00:04:00] taught me to read and write.

And then I like stopped Korean school and then I got into K-Pop around like 12, 13, like I wanna say 13. And then that also like watching YouTube videos of my favorite Korean artist like that. Also then kind of like. Kept me up to date with like helped me practice a little bit.

Sam Rhee: Why do you care about learning Korean?

Sasha Rhee: Well, K-Pop wasn't because I cared about learning Korean K-Pop was because like I enjoyed it a lot and it just happens that they're young and they use slang and you pick up on it. Yeah, I think for me, like learning it when I was younger was not. On my mind. Like we just were forced to go to Korean school basically.

And Nick and I particularly did not enjoy it if we're being honest. Mm-hmm. Um, I think now it's, I've kind of given up on learning it honestly, fully and ever becoming fluent and like advancing my level. But I don't know, some part of me, because it's like my background and like at least know some of it, I wanna like at least maintain.

That like, I don't wanna forget it.

Sam Rhee: Why?

Sasha Rhee: Because it's part of my heritage. I feel like being Korean is very important to [00:05:00] me.

Sam Rhee: It is,

Sasha Rhee: yes. Why? I'm very proud to be a Korean.

Sam Rhee: Really?

Sasha Rhee: Yeah. I find a lot of pride in it. Like, I don't know if it's because like my grandparents immigrated from Korea or just like when we went, I had like.

Such an amazing time and I feel like I thought honestly we weren't that Korean, which is like, 'cause we're very American. But then when we went to Korean and we went into that little museum, I don't know if you remember, we went to like a little museum that like went through a life cycle of like a Korean person from like the first birthday all the way to like the traditions you do when someone dies or whatever.

I like realized we like did more than I thought. And like the way we operating in our lives is more Korean than I thought.

Sam Rhee: Like what?

Sasha Rhee: Well one, like I just, I don't dunno, like I forgot we had like a first birthday and all that. We Oh yeah. We did the new, we do, we did bowing for so long on New Year's and we eat like rice cake soup, like whatever, like things like that where I was like, oh, like we still do a lot of things for the fact that I'm two generations now removed from the people that lived in Korea.

Sam Rhee: Mm.

Sasha Rhee: So I feel like being Korean is very. Important to me. I just think it's also important to have pride in your culture and I feel like Korea's grown so much and [00:06:00] evolved and like there are obviously downsides to it, but I feel like neglecting that is like, there's no point.

Sam Rhee: Are most of your friends Korean?

Sasha Rhee: I do. Most of my friends, like I have definitely more Korean friends than anyone else, but I still have like a diverse group. But there is that cultural connection still with my Korean friends.

Sam Rhee: Mm-hmm. Are there any downsides to being a Korean American?

Sasha Rhee: I think one of the downsides of my being, my generation, third generation is the language.

Like,

Sam Rhee: like how

Sasha Rhee: just that the priority or I guess the way I was raised, like, 'cause you know, mom is fluent in Korean because like grandma literally did, it does not speak any English. Like I guess like for me the difference, or which I see kind of as a downside is that like the language has somewhat. Fade not faded, but like as a, like, Nick and I are not as fluent, but we can obviously learn on our own.

But I think it's like that type of aspect is different.

Sam Rhee: I think you have a different perspective. First of all, [00:07:00] my two brothers Yeah. Are, are way worse at Korean than you are. Mm-hmm. And they're, and my mother spoke. 99% Korean. Mm-hmm. I think a lot of it was conscious, or maybe not conscious, but there were, uh, it was deliberate on my part, not to lean in on being Korean or growing up Korean or leaning into Korean culture or the Korean language for a bunch of reasons.

And those reasons seem to be different than. Your reasons about wanting to be very proud about, you know, having a Korean culture and a Korean background, uh, does this, but does any of that really help you in life?

Sasha Rhee: I mean, I don't think, like, I'm proud, I wanna be proud to be like, I'm proud to be a Korean because like, it will somehow help me in life.

It's not like they, I feel like it's like not something that gives me like extrinsic value of like, this is going to like give me more money or help me succeed [00:08:00] more, or whatever.

Sam Rhee: Mm-hmm.

Sasha Rhee: It's just like something that I feel like is intrinsic to your identity. Mm-hmm. It's intrinsic to who at least I am.

And I have, I feel like Korean culture has led me to such. So many great communities and like friendships and relationships in my life.

Sam Rhee: Mm-hmm.

Sasha Rhee: I mean, I'm also biased 'cause you know, like I did a Korea Finance Society fellowship for instance, you know, which builds on that intrinsic value of like being Korean.

And I guess there is some extrinsic value to that, but I really think like it's nothing about advancing or leading to other results. It's more of an intrinsic thing.

Sam Rhee: Wouldn't it just be more useful to learn Spanish or another language other than leaning into Korean? Honestly,

Sasha Rhee: I mean, my Spanish is better than my Korean.

Okay. In terms of like, um, like comprehension vocabulary? Yeah. Like I took Spanish for a really, really long time. I mean, like Duke offers Korean and I took Spanish.

Sam Rhee: Wasn't it good that I taught you, I forced you to take Spanish instead of Latin when you, uh, had a language choice early on in your, uh, [00:09:00] academic career?

Sasha Rhee: Yes, but I also think making the direct comparison be between Korean and Spanish is very different.

Sam Rhee: How so?

Sasha Rhee: Well, at least from my perspective, because like I am Korean and in my everyday life currently, maybe not in my professional life later on, but in my everyday, like currently, if I was more fluent in Korean, that would be a lot that would just like advance a lot of parts of my life.

Like whether it's like my relationship with like grandma or like things like that or like my own personal like perception of myself and me being Korean.

Sam Rhee: One of the things that Korean culture does or is leans into pretty heavily are gender differences, misogyny. There's a lot of misogyny in the Korean culture, so why would you even lean into learning the Korean culture or being part of it when they literally treat women so much worse than men?

Sasha Rhee: I think there's like a tension. Between it because like I said, like intrinsically, we are still, [00:10:00] our roots are still in Korea and like I am a Korean person, not because of like choice, but because like that is the ethnicity that I was born with. Obviously Korea's nation, patriarchal country. I've done a lot of research on this.

I've written a lot of papers about this, like I've read a lot of books about this, about how Korea, for instance, has like the number one gender pay gap in the world. But I think then that's where it adds to my nuance of I'm not just like blindly like. While like I want to, like maybe when I was younger and more naive, but now I'm, I appreciate the nuance of being a Korean American more because of like, being American makes me cognizant of like my Korean heritage.

Like living in America makes you cognizant of like certain things in Korea, like you said, like the patriarchy where there is like that tension in like America let's like has like a better um. Pay gap for instance, or like things like that. Like I feel like it's not like me wanting to learn Korean as like I wanna live in Korea someday.

Like I want to like become a full, you know what I mean, like a Korean citizen and all that. [00:11:00] It's more just like adding I think to like what it means to me to be Korean American. And it's like a different it. They both kind of. Work in tandem.

Sam Rhee: I would say someone would argue that you're kind of whitewashing the Korean culture that way.

You're picking and choosing the aspects that you like, but you're not actually. Sort of being honest in terms of the fact that there's so much about the Korean culture, which is very negative and can be very difficult to deal with. The language. Language dictates how you think and the language itself.

When you look at how they speak about men and women, like the terms men and women or husband and wife are literally different like. The literal translation of husband is like outside person, and the translation for wife is like inside person. Like woman is not supposed to be out like they're supposed to be cloistered inside the house doing housework.

Men are the ones literally by the language [00:12:00] definition, are the ones who are out doing things. So it's that kind of issue in the language that dictates how. People think in that culture and that culture, you can't separate and like say, oh, I like this part of, I like the kimchi, but I don't like the oggi of the Korean language or the Korean culture, and so I'm just going to pick and choose this that, but not like really acknowledge this part.

Like that is really where I think people could argue that you're just kind of a dilettante when it comes to like picking out what is Korean to you.

Sasha Rhee: Well, one, I don't appreciate that, but I honestly think, like, I don't really know what solution you're trying to get at to like respond to this type of argument.

Like what? So then like my, what I should do instead is just lean into fully being American. And because Korean language for instance is like that. Like I shouldn't try to learn or I shouldn't try to like continue to advance my skills with [00:13:00] that. Like there are a lot of things where. We live in America.

Yeah. We contribute to capitalism, for instance. Of course. Quite working, things like that. Yeah. People can make the argument that that's a horrible system. You know that there's a lot of inequity that you by being upon, you know what I mean? By contributing and not like whatever, like part of it is just acknowledgement instead of just refusing or turning away.

I feel like from the entire concept in of itself, like I feel like being aware one of like. I talk all the time to my friends about like the patriarchal standards of Korea. Like if you're Korean, you know how horrible Korea is to women. You can't like not know unless like you are misogynistic, but just because I feel like it's better for me to be aware and acknowledge it and like be understanding of that than rather just like ignore being Korean, pretend like I'm not, like I don't know what the solution would be.

Then to that, pretend that I'm not Korean, turn away, be like, I'm not learning this language because of that. Like some people might respond that way, but personally I. Don't see that, and I get called whitewashed all the time and genuinely like. I think [00:14:00] that like sometimes, oh yeah, you can admit that, but it's not something that I necessarily like, chose a lot of the factors that have contributed to it are how I was raised, how, you know what I mean?

Like where I was raised, what location, like even the town in Jersey that we live in versus like Fort Lee is very different. And so like, I think that these are all things that for me to turn away and completely be like, well, I'm just gonna not be Korean then, and like, you know, not advance my language skills and not care about learning the language.

I feel like that's not even doing anything. Better.

Sam Rhee: I don't think you have to make a conscious choice to turn away, but the issue is, is that you are raised not Korean on so many levels, and to me, having seen what it means to grow up Korean, people don't understand how limiting that is as a child when.

The system is set up that you must have absolute obedience to your parents. There's no free will or choice for kids. Like if you see [00:15:00] very traditional Korean parents, they will dictate everything that you do, all of your study, where you go, what you do, you can't literally do anything without the dictates of your parents.

I remember my parents when my mother and father got married. She had to live at my father's parents' house, even though my father had to, he immigrated to the United States, but because she was now property, essentially property and quote, no longer part of her family. But now part of. Her husband's family, she had to go and live with my father's parents, serve them, clean for them, cook for them, do all that stuff because that is the way the Korean culture worked, and she had no choice.

So many of the choices I made, either consciously or unconsciously in terms of growing up. In terms of raising you guys was not to be part of that. I really wanted to give you guys [00:16:00] choices in terms of growing up that's American, that is uniquely American in most cultures. Like I don't think there are a lot of cultures that I see, uh, on the immigrant side where you can allow your children that freedom to grow, to be happy to, to follow what they want to do.

And so when I see a lot of people who are like. Um, nostalgic for the old country, or this is the way it used to be for people. It was better. I don't find that the case at all. I'm not saying turn away from Korean or Korean culture, but I don't think people really understand what it means to be Korean. To be Korean is so restrictive that society is tight and you don't have a lot of freedom, and so you have that luxury of looking at it from an outside perspective of being someone who, who could make that choice of whether you wanted to or not.

I have friends who are. Forced to go to Korea and learn and do, they couldn't do sports, they couldn't do anything else. They had to go learn Korean, go back to [00:17:00] Korea, you know, study, engineering, whatever it was, because that was the Korean way. And so I. It is one thing to look out from the outside and say, oh, this is nice.

Um, it's another thing to have to be forced to be in that system.

Sasha Rhee: Well, for one, for you to say that I'm like a blind outside looking like I'm gonna be so real. You cannot. I am not like nostalgic for the old country. Do not wanna live. You know what I mean? Like I don't like me saying that I am Korean is a fact in terms of like my ethnicity.

Ethnicity is me being Korean.

Sam Rhee: Sure. Just like you're a woman.

Sasha Rhee: Yeah. Like me, like and an American like, and with black

Sam Rhee: hair.

Sasha Rhee: Yeah. It's like that's my nationality. These are just like. Like, whatever, like facts about like who I am and like where I came from and like things that, like I was born like, you know, like with two people with Korean heritage and that's not something like I necessarily chose.

That doesn't necessarily mean that I, like when I say like, I'm Korean and like I wanna learn the language. That does not at all imply that like, I necessarily want to like go back to the olden [00:18:00] days, which I what that means. Like pre-war, post war. Like, I don't wanna, like, that doesn't mean I wanna go back to it.

I feel like that is one of like the tensions of being like Korean American is acknowledging obvious, like I said, like. How horrible Korea treats women like still today in the working place, like the sacrifices of motherhood in a career and things like that. But just me saying like, like me wanting to learn the language is not necessarily.

Mean that I want to like continue to perpetuate what, like a lot of the stereotypes that Koreas to continue to put through. I am not saying that I wish I was born in Korea or that I wish, oh,

Sam Rhee: I'm not saying that.

Sasha Rhee: Yeah. And I like that. Those are all things where it's like, like people that say, sometimes people say I'm Korean not because like that doesn't necessarily mean they're nostalgic for it.

I feel like it's different when I see people, which I've heard a lot of people who are not Korean, not of Korean ethnicity, have no familial or no. Relations at all to the country. And they're the ones who are like, oh, well, Korea's so amazing. Like Korea's like the perfect country, and things like that.

That's very different, I feel like, but I feel like a lot of Korean Americans [00:19:00] do feel that tension and like. Yes, like being raised in America allows you access to so many opportunities. Like the American culture is much more forgiving, like you said, of people pursuing their passions and grades not being everything, and not making you go to like after school, for instance, and study till like 9:00 PM Like those are a lot of things.

But I think simultaneously there's still the feeling of some Korean Americans where it's like, but it is difficult when you're not able to communicate with your grandparents, for instance. Like things like that I think, which are like nuanced tensions that just saying like. Like saying I'm proud to be Korean is not necessarily like erase all of that either.

Like it's hard to acknowledge. I feel like everything in one statement, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm not going to be proud to be Korean in my own right and how I was raised in that mix of cultures.

Sam Rhee: I think being in that mix is what makes it, I. Much better. That's the thing, like leaning into the Korean side, I've seen even your generation kids who, or their families who've leaned who are Korean American, [00:20:00] they live in the United States.

They are US citizens, but I. They self isolate into Korean communities, just like the Fort Lee's or the, or the Palisades Parks or you know, where they're not really engaging on the American culture side, but it's almost as if they're still. Living in Seoul, and those are the people that I look at and I have real difficulty with in terms of, oh yeah, Korea's so great.

You know, ya rah, rah, Korea, I'm leaning into Korean, everything. Those are the people I think that are really not understanding what it means to be Korean American. And for me, yes, those are people who would look at me and say, this guy is not Korean. Not even a little bit. But on that side, as you said. I'm actually more Korean than most people think.

I just don't sit there and make that my life or the way I feel like I should be living my life. I think that this is where I [00:21:00] don't love people who like. Look down on other Korean Americans for being too quote white or not Korean enough. And so there's a very slippery slope where I see a lot of people who judge other Korean Americans because of their lack of koreanness.

And I would actually criticize them for leaning a little bit too much on the Korean culture side and saying, Hey, listen, you guys really need to understand the quote, like you said, tensions that are involved and maybe sort of recalibrate a little bit.

Sasha Rhee: I mean, I also will say like I've literally heard for my like almost 20 years of life, like you could not, like literally, I think every single year of my life I've heard like you are not Korean enough, like you're super white.

Like all these statements, like I've heard a thousand times still in college. They don't bother me though because I. Acknowledge that like my connection to the Korean culture is probably a lot weaker and a lot different than like these people who I feel like these families you're talking about, they're kind of like how you're like the same generation of your family.

Like the parents are Korean immigrants and [00:22:00] the kids who are like my age now are like you. Where they're like kind of navigate, they were born in America but their parents were not. Like, I obviously do think that it's very di like how we view them is probably like very different from how they view us.

And you know, there is some bias in the sense that. What they did is different from the choice that you made. And so people just make different choices in how they wanna raise their kids in America, how they wanna live in America, and how they wanna navigate America itself. But I mean, like, uh, you bring up a point where it's like, if you really want it to be that Korean and just staying Korea, but again, they also have a lot of nuanced tensions where it's like, well financially it might be, you know, better.

And, um. America, for instance, maybe they don't wanna go to the Army. Like, you know, there are so nuanced tensions on both sides, I think.

Sam Rhee: I think the issue is, is that these are people who want to take advantage of a lot of American benefits. Like the Korean education system is super rigid and most kids.

End up not being able to achieve what they [00:23:00] really want to because the entrance exams for colleges are impossible. The pressure is enormous. Like we think that there's a lot of pressure in college or in the college admissions process in the United States. Just wait till you look at these kids growing up in Korea to, you know, the tutoring, the studying, um, the amount of psychologic pressure that.

These, uh, that the system puts on them. And so a lot of families will come to the United States because, you know, there are so many avenues to success in in America that you don't have in Korea. It's very rigid in most universities. You literally have to have somebody die in order to take. For a position to open up.

You can't create your own opportunities. It's like that in Europe and many countries as well. A lot of the opportunities that America has are not available, um, either because of a cultural or syste, uh, systems issue, uh, in a, in a bunch of different countries. So they, so they come here, but if you're gonna come here, I, I honestly feel like, and maybe this is because I grew up in [00:24:00] Ohio and I grew up in a very non Korean society like.

My parents did hang out with their group of Korean friends, and that's all they did, but I never felt like leaning into that side would help me on any level, and I don't think it really has on any level. Now, I. You know, culturally, am I more bereft because I didn't learn more Korean or you know, more Korean language skills?

Like I went to Korean school just like you did for a bunch of years. Um, I did go to Korea and visited. We do have a bunch of Korean, uh, cultures and customs, which I don't think are bad. Like, I don't think, um. To a certain degree, respecting your elders is a bad thing. In, in a lot of ways it's very important, but I don't think that sort of blinds, you know, devotion that you're supposed to do is appropriate.

So I have, I personally have picked and chosen the things that I think are appropriate and are helpful and are also touch points for our family in terms of cultural, um. [00:25:00] Cultural things. Just like all pa, all families have rituals. They all have special things that they do, whether it's something they've made up or something that's sort of been passed down to on their families.

Uh. What I have liked. I could have learned Korean a lot more over the years. I never chose to because I never felt like it was an like, yes. Could I have spoken to my parents better? Yes, but did I really like speaking Korean? One of the biggest issues I had about learning Korean was I didn't think it was a very equitable language.

So when you speak in Korean. The way you speak to someone older than you, as you know, and then someone who's your peer or who's lower in status to you is very different. So literally the words, the way you phrase things, you can't argue with your parents the same way you in Korean as you could in English.

When we argue as a daughter, father in English. That language that we use when you speak to me, I speak [00:26:00] to you is the same vocabulary. It's the same sentence structure. It's the same. Uh. Wording, but if we were to speak in Korean and you were arguing with me, you literally have a disadvantage as my daughter because you cannot use the same words sentence, structure and phrasing.

You literally have to use words that make you subservient. I. Because otherwise it is hugely disrespectful and it's crazy. And so when I would argue with my mother, like there's no way I was gonna speak Korean to her. I was gonna, she would speak Korean to me, but I was no way I was gonna speak English because there's that, that tone that I would have to use or that phrasing would never make it worthwhile to argue.

Like you automatically lose, you know, by the, you know, when you're saying, oh, if it pleases you mother, and she's like. Shut up. Like there's no way it's gonna be even. So there was a lot of disincentive for me as I was growing up to learn Korean. I just didn't want to learn Korean because I never felt [00:27:00] like it put me in an advantage for any reason.

I mean, when you speak to Korean, Korean, you're speaking in a different way. You're speaking to your grandmother, you're speaking to your peers, you're speaking, you know, you're learning it through K-Pop. That's a completely different motivation. And, uh. Set of circumstances that I, I never really had. So I understand why you would wanna do that, but I'm sure you could also understand why it was difficult for me and why my perspective is different in terms of what it means to me.

So what are you gonna do with your kids when they grow up? Are they gonna, are you gonna, what Korean customs are you going to, uh, carry on? What kind of language skills are you going to encourage for them? You didn't, you didn't like doing Korean language school. Would you have wanted us to continue that for you?

Sasha Rhee: I mean, I like a lot of things we did when we were younger. Like you and Nick talked about it in your episode and you and mom did too. Were like, we did for [00:28:00] instance, and like, I guess Kuman is kind of similar to the student career called Hagan, but it's not as intense. It's just, you know, like.

Supplementary work for school per se. And like Nick and I also didn't like that. Like I think I cried way more about Kuma than I ever did about Korean school and we still stuck with it. And now Nick and I, I think, are both very thankful that we were put in it and that it honestly had a very large impact, I think, on our trajectory in school and how I viewed like STEM subjects in my capability of doing math, for instance.

I mean. I think a lot of it also like it's hard to predict because a lot of it depends on like who I marry, for instance. Like what do they want? Like do they, are they Korean even like if they're not Korean, then do they speak a language like,

Sam Rhee: so you must have a lot of friends who have one Korean parent, one non Korean parent.

Right?

Sasha Rhee: I mean, I have probably more than your generation, but it's not necessarily like both parents speak another language. Like I see a lot of like. Like half white, half Korean, where it's not like the tension of like, well, do we teach our kids English or Korean? You know, like [00:29:00] it's, it's a little bit different than like, if you had, for instance, like.

Sam Rhee: So what are their Korean language skills like, or how do they approach the Korean culture and as part of their life or their heritage?

Sasha Rhee: I mean, it's very different. I've met half Korean, like half Korean Americans who have spoken better Korean than me. I've also met, I mean, I've met full Koreans who are my generation, who speak way less than me, know nothing.

I mean, this is also the spectrum of, it's very much what the parents make it not all. Second generation Koreans are the, you know, are the same. Not all third generation Korean Americans are the same. Like, I think it very much, that's like very much dependent on the parent. Like I've met, I know a couple like whatever, like, you know, like white Asians, like white Koreans, who.

The mom is Korean and so she, you know, was really important to her. So she was a lot more influential in like the upbringing and that's why the kids speak literally better Korean than me. I've also met once where like the dad is Korean and the moms and you know, somehow that dynamic led it to their kids knowing nothing and not really being culturally immersed in it.

Like what

Sam Rhee: would your choice be? Let's suppose whether you marry someone who's Korean or not Korean, [00:30:00] what would you like your children to to know in terms of their Korean heritage?

Sasha Rhee: I think the reality of it is like I have a lot of other things that I wanna do in my life, and the priority of like me becoming fluent in Korean is not that large of a priority and like, so I think because of that reality, like there is no way that my kids will ever be fluent in Korean unless I send them, you know what I mean?

Like to a. Like intense l say, live in career, like go to intensive Korean bootcamp, which is probably not gonna happen for me as like a mother, I feel like in the future.

Sam Rhee: Would you like them to learn or become fluent in Korean? Like is that, would that be a plus for you?

Sasha Rhee: There's just like, it's, I can't really wrap my head around it because I'm not like there's, I don't know many people where the kid is better at a language and the parent per se, and like, I think that's just a reflection on like parent dynamics and whatever.

And so honestly for me, like what's being, what's more important is like, I don't like, I feel, I just like. Understanding the culture and a sense of like understanding like why we are Korean. Like the story of like, you know, like the grandparent, like my grandparents immigrating, which would be their great grandparents, like [00:31:00] how we came to America.

Like I feel like for me, understanding the stories and why like my kids are who they are in the future and why. They're like the fourth generation to live in America, hopefully, and things like that. I feel like that cultural comprehension and understanding and just both the acknowledgement awareness, but also the appreciation of where they came from, I feel like that is inherently tied to my Korean heritage and having them understand that is more important.

Like obviously, like I will probably have my kids like eat Korean food, like. You know, like I will obviously like, hopefully at least like take them to Korea if I can, like at one point in their lives. Like there are things like that I feel like, which aren't necessarily, you don't need to know the language to be appreciative of your roots.

Sam Rhee: You've mentioned at school that there are different groups of. Asian students, ones who sort of lean very, like maybe they were international students who have come overseas. Uh, [00:32:00] others who, as you said are, you know, very sort of into whatever heritage or culture that they're in. And then others who are way less so, um.

I feel like you've mentioned that you don't really love it on either, either side. So what is it about, say, international students who come from Korea who are in the United States, what is it that you don't love about sort of those aspects of their culture?

Sasha Rhee: I mean. My own, like I feel like one is really hard to make generalizations.

Like I've met a lot of international kids who went to high school in Korea through my career finance study fellowship, and I didn't even know, or I couldn't even, like, my first impression of them was that like they went to high school in America, for instance. And I think that that does still speak to the spectrum of not all international students.

Necessarily fit the stereotype. I mean, like I will say the majority of my interactions with Korean international students at Duke, I think there's just like a lot of judgment per se, of like not being Korean [00:33:00] enough, which I think is speaks to also other cultures. Like I feel like there's so much media out there for people feeling like they're not, you know, like Indian enough or not black enough or you know, like not right.

Hispanic enough. And that's I think just like. Common thread among all people who grew up in a country versus growing up in America.

Sam Rhee: What do you have to do to be Korean enough, do you think? In their eyes.

Sasha Rhee: I mean, and so that's why I have an issue with it. 'cause I don't really know what that means. Like does that mean that my, like that.

Grandma and grandpa, does it start with them not leaving Korea? Or does it start, you know, is it all on me and I should have done it even if I started in America? Like that's a very complicated question, which is why I have an issue with it, because I think it's very hard to make that type of blanket statement.

Um, but at the same time, I do think that it is really hard being a, it can be difficult transitioning as a Korean international student to American universities. I mean, even how people dress, like [00:34:00] how. College is structured. And so I think that I pushed back a lot more on them and were more hard on them when I was in high school and maybe at the start of Duke.

But I think over the past two years I have, you know, tried to be more understanding of maybe why they act the way they do or why they do certain things. Because at the end of the day, like I am who I am because of how I was raised and what generation Korean American I am, and you could say the same thing for them.

Sam Rhee: Let me put up an example of a, a Korean cultural tradition and ask you how to resolve this because this is actually something that's been going on in our family. Uh, and I've actually talked to it with some of my friends who are not Korean and they have very mixed views, like they've given me opinions about.

Resolution of this, and it's been very different. One is, uh, and this is the genealogy book, which we've talked about. So in, in the Korean tradition, uh, your genealogy is written in this tome or [00:35:00] textbook or whatever it is, this public book. And basically all of your ancestors, as far back as you can remember, is written in it and it's shared.

And then it's passed down from generation to generation and it has basically your family tree listed in it. And I remember, um. We were talking about as a family, and my mother said that this has to be passed on to Nick. So my father's the oldest son. I'm the oldest son of our generation. And so it would come to me, but then when it came to me after me, it would go to Nick because he is the son, not the daughter who you are, even though you are the oldest, uh, child.

So. To re to resolve this, what would be the solution? Should it go to Nick and respect the Korean cultural, cultural tradition? Or should it go to you? Because this is the way the traditions should actually be [00:36:00] upheld is going to, is to change, you know? 'cause not all traditions have to be the same.

Traditions change over time. Should it go just to the oldest child? Re regard regardless of gender.

Sasha Rhee: I mean, obviously as the oldest child in this situation, like I'm biased. I think I cared a lot more when I was younger. I'm honestly kind of over it. I don't really care about getting the book anymore because at the end of the day, like the book is gonna die with our generation.

Sam Rhee: Why? Why not? Or whatever.

Sasha Rhee: Like it's not going to like have the same that necessarily, I think like

Sam Rhee: we could keep the same value. Well

Sasha Rhee: like keeping it, but I mean in, I mean, be

Sam Rhee: written in English. Yeah.

Sasha Rhee: Like for instance that like it's, but so

Sam Rhee: what?

Sasha Rhee: Things like that where I feel like it, like at least for Nick.

It won't, like, he won't care as much about it as let's say, like grandpa and like, or they'll care about it in very different ways. Like for grandpa, its like, this is like. This is ingrained, this is going to affect my children's names. And that's true for Nick. And you know, our generation, it's more like, oh, this is like a cool thing from like our family and like, you know, we could follow, we could not follow it.

That's kind of like, [00:37:00] it's more up to interpretation, I think, for what we wanna do with it.

Sam Rhee: And so what would your suggestion be in terms of how should we interpret this?

Sasha Rhee: I mean, obviously like for me, in terms of like breaking tradition, like I think there are some traditions that need to be broken. I mean, you look at the world today, tradition is not necessarily forever set in stone.

I mean the tradition. 50 years ago was that women were not really in investment banking, and I am now a woman going into investment banking. Now we see women, female CEOs, I mean, look at the CEO of Citibank, for instance. She's a woman Jane for, so it's like things like that. I think and sos obviously for me, I'm gonna be like, well, we should just break the traditional, like I should get it like.

Whatever. I mean, I'm over it in the sense that I don't feel like fighting on it, like, you know, per se. Like I also think that there is the tension of, well you also wanna respect your grandparents' wishes, but if we're being honest, I speak to grandma and grandpa with like not that much respect in like my tone.

I feel like sometimes. And

Sam Rhee: you mean just because you don't have the language capabilities because

Sasha Rhee: isn't English? Yes. Like even speaking grandpa to English, it's not like I'm necessarily like the most [00:38:00] respectful tone per se. Like he, you know, him and I have had.

Sam Rhee: Yes.

Sasha Rhee: And whatever. Yes, yes,

Sam Rhee: yes, yes.

Sasha Rhee: Like I think that there is that too.

But because of the way I was raised as a Korean American, like you said, like you, like you and I argue a lot differently than like you and like grandma argued per se. And so I think that

Sam Rhee: I've gotten beaten a lot. Yeah.

Sasha Rhee: And so I think I'm Okay. Necessary. I think I'm okay with like breaking the tradition because like.

The type of culture that frames that book and why it's passed down through men is not necessarily something that has fully permeated my life and the way that it fully permeated like grandpa's life.

Sam Rhee: I don't want to call it breaking. It's a modifying because it's not like you're

Sasha Rhee: burning the book.

Sam Rhee: Exactly. You're maintaining it. Maybe it's in English. So again, modifying the tradition, it's not gonna be in the, the old Chinese characters that I think traditionally are used in there. So, but the issue [00:39:00] is, as you said.

Would my parents even give me the book if they knew that I was not going to give it to Nick? They might be like, we're, I don't know. I think there is some precedent about this. We

Sasha Rhee: also have not found this book yet, by the way, for the viewers out there, it's a, supposedly in the house, we don't actually know where it

Sam Rhee: is.

They, they've, they, well, I mean, they're older, so they can't keep track of all this. Stuff, but I'm pretty sure I know where in the basement it's being hidden. But anyway, uh, you know, we could do one of those national treasure type, uh, um,

Sasha Rhee: scavenger hunts. Yeah,

Sam Rhee: scavenger hunts. But I, I'm just saying there is precedent that they could cut meat out and then give it to.

Rich, who's the next son in line who of course has only sons. So he couldn't

Sasha Rhee: who, none of them to be Korean, by the way.

Sam Rhee: So none. So they, so I think the funny thing is, is that you are the most Korean like. Um, forward person in your generation [00:40:00] of the kids who are grown up, and yet you're the one who, and this is why I'm talking about it benefits the least on many levels from being the most Korean.

Like if you were the oldest son and you, uh. You know of the oldest son, there'd be so many advantages that you would have, like literally everyone would have to be like bowing to you using the honorifics all the time and all that. But since you're the oldest daughter, like the Korean tradition, like. Y that's why I ask, because it benefits you the least.

And yet you are the most knowledgeable about the Korean culture, the Korean language, uh, you know, um, and you lean into it more than anyone else does, and yet, so I. That tension, as you said, is what amazes me sometimes that, you know, listen, I love the fact that you are proud of for being Korean. I'm very proud of the fact that you know as much Korean as you do.

I'm very proud of the fact that you are, um, really [00:41:00] good about the Korean culture better than anyone else that I know, um, in my close circle. And, uh, and yet it. There's tension for me because I personally like rejected it because there was so much of it that when I was growing up, I didn't find helpful for me.

If anything, it was more of a hindrance because then I would have to listen to my parents more. I'd have to follow what they wanted. I would have to do what they wanted to do, and most of, a lot of what my life was was about pushing all of that away.

Sasha Rhee: I mean, it's about context. You could even look at like transnational and transracial adoptees, South Korea.

I just read an article in the New York Times had like the most like. It also was like a totally messed up system of like adoption, you know? And like sending, oh,

Sam Rhee: Korean.

Sasha Rhee: Yeah, yeah.

Sam Rhee: Well they got rid of all their baby, their girl babies.

Sasha Rhee: There's also a history of female and ide and like China for instance.

Like obviously like there is also that nuance and like you, it's, I feel like it's even more complicated for people, you know, Korean adoptees and white families of like, why are you Korean [00:42:00] and whatever. Yes.

Sam Rhee: Very, very complicated. It's all

Sasha Rhee: about the context of which you live in and which you were born in, and like partially that's why like I.

At this point, do not really care about if they gimme the book or not, because I know that they know that if they give the book to like my cousins or Nick, there's a much higher chance that like the appreciation and the cultural awareness of the book's roots is gonna be a lot less. And I know that they know that.

And I don't really, that's why like I'm like, whatever. Because at the end of the day, like I'm not gonna like force them to gimme a book that's like, not like a fight that I really care about or wanna have. And. I think that for me, being the only girl born on like your very male dominated side of the family, I'm, I've done everything that I wanna do and I've know for instance, that like I go to a great university and that I am.

Like, you know, on the higher side of like, smartness on that, like whatever and things like that. Like I do, I [00:43:00] think that me knowing that and being secure in that, I know that they know, and I know that they've watched me grow up. I know that they've seen everything that I've done. And so for me it's like a, if you wanna give it to them, like that's fine.

Like, that's something that you would have like, that you can do and you can live and, you know, with that conscious decision. And that's fine. And like. I know that they know all this.

Sam Rhee: I will say this, I've never lived my life in accordance to what my parents wanted, because if they did, if I did, if that meant anything to me, the disappointment, I know they felt that I went to Duke and I didn't go to Harvard or Princeton or Yale or one of the Ivys.

I could tell because the minute I got into Columbia Med School. That's all my father was speaking about was like that was redemptive. Like, okay, he went to Duke, but he went to Columbia Med School, so I know how they feel. I will tell you this, I don't care what they think about the book, so. I'll, I'm getting the book and I'm giving it to you, like there's no reason for me not to because, but with the caveat [00:44:00] that you have to maintain the, the tradition as modified, you have to continue the genealogy, you have to write it in English.

You have to keep track of everybody's births, their names, their document.

Sasha Rhee: Obviously we joke that I'm the one who's going to host all the cousin reunions for 20 years.

Sam Rhee: I understand that, but, but that would be my mandate to you, is that that. Like that tradition would have to be continued. The only difference is, is that it doesn't end, it shouldn't matter which gender it is, uh, who gets it.

Um, and, and maintains that.

Sasha Rhee: I mean, times change, you know, I mean like, this is also a whole thing of. Time. As time passes, people change. Like Duke itself has also changed as a school, you know, and it's prestige and it's now better than half the Ivys according, you know, according to a lot of rankings. And then you have like Nick, who just got in and grandpa calls, all really excited, really happy, really proud.

He calls me every time, you know, duke is playing in a basketball game and did you see the game? And oh my God, they're [00:45:00] so good. And I'm so proud that like two of my grandkids go to Duke. I mean, you know what I mean? Like at times. Yep. D

Sam Rhee: where did he tell you to? Uh, to appoint. I

Sasha Rhee: times he like told me to already go to Harvard, but I don't necessarily think that that means like the disappointment he felt when you went is this, he doesn't feel, I don't think he feels any disappointment that necessarily that we didn't go.

Sam Rhee: No, absolutely not. No, I'm just talking about mean. Yeah. No, but the disappointment with me. But

Sasha Rhee: that's why times changed. Like there was disappointment when you went to Duke, but then when Nick and I both got into Duke, it was like, oh my God. Yes. And so I think like times changing, people change and that's why like, I.

Don't really care what they think per se, because I've like, they have to live with the facts. Like they had, grandpa had to live with the fact that Duke became a really awesome, you know, great school and he learned and whatever. And like, that's just something that like, I'm not gonna like necessarily fight against or wait for because I just don't care enough.

Sam Rhee: So in the future, what is it, how do you find that balance as your fourth generation? Kids [00:46:00] go forth. Is there anything that you're going to be telling them about how you grew up in terms of like what to do, what not to do?

Sasha Rhee: Well, yeah, I think it's very important one to like have a close and like transparent relationship with your kids.

Like I plan on being on with transparent with them. As possible about like what my relationship with their grandparents a KU guys are like, like why some things annoy me, why some things don't like what heavy burdens or you know, do I carry from my past and why doesn't like whatever. Like I plan on being very transparent about my kids.

'cause I think. Being a kid, you understand like how irritating it can be sometimes to not know things or not hear that. And so that's obviously important to me. I mean,

Sam Rhee: have I not been transparent?

Sasha Rhee: No, I think you have and I think that's like why, like I wanna follow that in the sense, whereas when I see like you with like your parents, like obviously, like it's very obvious that there was not as much conversation or transparency between none you guys.

Yeah. And so

Sam Rhee: what would you do different? Like what would you tell them? This is what my parents did [00:47:00] for me, that I'm not going to do for you. Like I want this to be different between us.

Sasha Rhee: I mean, I think that's a lot of more, like, that's not really cultural. I think that's more like personal things. Oh, okay.

Yeah. Like, I mean like, I think in terms of like the culture, I wouldn't necessarily do anything different. But it also, again, depends on who I marry. Like I feel like if you didn't marry mom, I don't really know, like, you know, hypothetically, I, I wouldn't be me anymore. But I don't really know, like if you would've sent your kids to Korean school, 'cause that was something that like mom's mom for, you know, was a really big.

Perpetuator of like, I mean, she was the one that enrolled me in Korean school in,

Sam Rhee: I would've wanted you to go to Korean school regardless. But most of the cultural tradition, that

Sasha Rhee: surprises me actually.

Sam Rhee: Really why?

Sasha Rhee: I, I feel like you would not want your, like, I feel like you didn't really care if we went to Korean school or not.

Sam Rhee: Oh, no. I, I, I got benefit out of going to Korean. Like listen, language acquisition of any form is very,

Sasha Rhee: yeah. It helps develop a child.

Sam Rhee: Right. And it's the same with music lessons, I think. Um, sports,

Sasha Rhee: which we did all of those. Yeah.

Sam Rhee: So I [00:48:00] would've leaned into all of that. Um, I was totally okay with you guys dropping it because you had to pick and choose your battles.

And the battle to get you guys to go weekly to Korean school on Fridays or whenever it was, Friday nights, was just like, it was brutal. And like you said, the skill acquisition was not good. Not because you guys weren't smart, but because the way they were teaching Yeah. At these schools was not.

Appropriate for you guys. They assumed that there was a certain level of Korean fluency in the household, which there usually was. 'cause these were all, like you said, second generation kids whose parents had just come from Korea, so they were surrounded by Korean. But for you and Nick to come home and for us not to be speaking Korean around you guys like this development of your language skills.

Like an hour a day, uh, a week at, or two hours a week at language school is just not gonna be enough.

Sasha Rhee: Yeah. Well that's why like for me, like Korean schools are off the table and I would very much, but I would also [00:49:00] want to take from my experience and make it like a little bit more like efficient if I'm being honest.

Like whether it's like instead getting like a tutor who like understands like my kids' level or that they're starting with nothing or whatever they're starting with. Like that's obviously not at the table, but again, it's like who you marry. Like my kids might be a fourth generation Korean, but if I marry.

A Chinese, like the, like the child of Chinese immigrants, they're a third generation Chinese. Like just because if I don't marry a Korean, they are not just Korean. And I think that is something else. Like if I married like someone from Spain, they'd be a first, you know what I mean? Like a first generation Hispanic or whatever in America like, and so I think,

Sam Rhee: I don't know what the right term is in

Sasha Rhee: Yeah.

But like, I think that's like a very. Different. And so it's like hard for me to say because obviously like some things are not, are non-negotiable for me in the sense of like, well we need to like, it's not like we're never gonna eat creative free, you know? Or like, I would like them to have like a first birthday, like a tour for instance, and whatever.

Mm-hmm. But it's not necessarily like, oh, they're definitely gonna be [00:50:00] fluent and Korean. They're definitely gonna learn the language. Or that's just something that I feel like is harder to plan. So it's just not as much of a priority for me.

Sam Rhee: I think for me, for you guys growing up. The touch, the cultural touch points.

Like first birthday, the, was it years? The 90 day one. Where? Hundred day.

Sasha Rhee: A hundred. The

Sam Rhee: a hundred day one. Sorry. The a hundred day. So the a hundred day one is where you, um, throw the different things out onto the mat?

Sasha Rhee: No, that's the first birthday. Oh,

Sam Rhee: is that the first birthday? A hundred

Sasha Rhee: day birthdays. Just like while, like, because children used to die back then in Korean wouldn't make it to a hundred days.

'cause of like the horrible. Conditions of the pre-war country. Right. So they were like, oh my God, it lived a hundred days. Like it's, yeah.

Sam Rhee: Infinite mortality was incredibly high for everyone back then. The day. Yeah. So at, at the, at the year, like throwing the different things out, like the noodles and the money, and the pencil, pencil and having the baby reach for it to sort of tell you what their, you know, future fortune is going to be like.

I, I, I'm into all that. I'm into the New Year's, you know, day celebration and, and

Sasha Rhee: we [00:51:00] love Korean food.

Sam Rhee: Yeah, I mean, I think Korean like, yeah, that, that should be another discussion at some point. Like culture, Korean food. I am, I love Korean food. I'm not someone who has to eat Korean food every day. I think LA and I are, yeah, like two could eat Korean food every day and live a happy life, and I would be like, wait, where's my, you know?

Chipotle or so, like, I'm, I'm not, I, I'm not that way, but

Sasha Rhee: Chipotle is be bomb.

Sam Rhee: I feel comfortable navigating outside of Korea, Korean stuff more than inside Korean stuff. But I can, I can navigate well enough, but I am the super whitey person and for all of my peers, pretty much. That's just the way it is. Um, I

Sasha Rhee: mean, me too.

Sam Rhee: I feel like you navigate both worlds pretty well, all things considered. Um, I think you have to

Sasha Rhee: prove yourself. [00:52:00] Like a lot of my Duke friends, their first impression from me is very different than how we are now.

Sam Rhee: Because once they get to know how much you actually know, then they're sort of like, that adds another aspect of their knowledge.

Sasha Rhee: Yeah. My, like, one of my friends always is like, I cannot believe you know that word. She's like, how do you know that word? Like. Like things like that. And for me it's just words that like they were never advanced words. It's just words that I know.

Sam Rhee: Yeah. The first time he told me about smec, I was like, oh yeah, that's not a word that I knew.

Sasha Rhee: Yeah, SOC, there's like,

Sam Rhee: what's soc?

Sasha Rhee: Soc is Soju and meu, which is Metu is beer and crazy. I mean, there's also things like Chim Me Chicken and meu, which is like a very popular combination of chicken and beer in Korea.

Sam Rhee: See, that's the thing. I had had chicken and beer when I was growing up, um, in med school.

Like we would go to Fort Lee. Yeah. But we never called it

Sasha Rhee: ec. Yeah,

Sam Rhee: EC like. You guys are the ones who are making it cool with the language. Well, sash, I really appreciate the time that you spend. I think this is a very interesting, uh, topic just [00:53:00] because there's no right answer for any of it. Um, and my perspective has been so colored by the way I grew up.

Um. Probably in, in a bunch of negative ways, which actually slants me sort of anti Korean in a lot of ways. But your perspective has been very, you know, positive and you've been able to sort of navigate it in a better way,

Sasha Rhee: which is a testament, I think, to you and mom.

Sam Rhee: I mean, I. I think mom is definitely way more Korean like obvious mom has been.

Sasha Rhee: Yeah. Very influential, I think. And,

Sam Rhee: and I think with, without her influence, you would never have gotten half sort of the positive influence about Korean culture. And,

Sasha Rhee: and it's her and her mom,

Sam Rhee: and her and her mother. Uh, and, but I've always been the one who sort of, and her too grounded in like, listen. We're Americans.

We live in America. We live in America. Success is built on being an American, not like living in some sort of like mm-hmm. Idealized like bubble where you have to, you know, and there's so many immigrant communities [00:54:00] just like that. Whether you go to Newark, you know, with the Portuguese or Brazilian community, or.

Um, in, you know, a Polish community or a Korean or Chinese community, like there's way more that we have to do in terms of being successful than just sort of leaning into that.

Sasha Rhee: It's like code switching. Like, I know we're wrapping up, but this totally other topic, but it's like code switching. Like, you know how I, what's

Sam Rhee: code switching?

Sasha Rhee: Code switching is like, some people see it as a negative concept. A lot of immigrants and people of color suit as just like a. A way it's supposed to be like, I'm kind of paraphrasing, but it basically is like when you switch, how you speak and how you act ah, based on the environment and who you're with.

Mm. And obviously like. I think that's why friends, it's like the Korean finance society has been really helpful because obviously like being in like, you know, the workplace, which is predominantly like white for instance, whereas like being like with my Korean friends, you know, at Duke, like I'm speaking very differently, like with the words I'm throwing all well,

Sam Rhee: sure.

Sasha Rhee: Yeah. And so that's just like something that people like, oh, like you're speaking so like white now, you know, or whatever. Like that's kind of an example of code switching. I think that's also something that. Is [00:55:00] another part of this.

Sam Rhee: I think to me it's more about being empathic. So

Sasha Rhee: yeah, when

Sam Rhee: I'm with working with someone or I am interacting with someone.

It really doesn't matter what, who I am or what where I've come from. I really want to feel or understand where that person's coming from. So someone looking at, that might call it code switching if what I'm doing. But what I'm really trying to do is just develop a connection and a bond to that person.

And if that per person happens to be. Someone who is super Italian or super Irish, like I know enough about these cultures and I try to learn enough that I can sort of connect on some level like, um, so I know what their background was, like, how they might have grown up. What might have been important to them or their family growing up.

Yeah. And so I'm not like trying to be them, but I'm trying to connect with them.

Sasha Rhee: That's why people like me, for instance, like immigrants, people of color don't see it as a bad thing. They see it as like wanting to [00:56:00] under eat. I mean like building that connection. 'cause like I said, like I have non, like, I have non Korean friends and like my relationships with them are just as strong because we bond, you know, we connected over something.

Different, whereas like some of my Korean friends just as strong of a relationship too. But that's probably, you know, some of the basis is like the cultural understanding and like that's just like you said, like being like, like valuing where people are from other backgrounds and that's why people, some people say that like code switching is not a bad thing.

Sam Rhee: I mean, it's funny because my best friends, if you had to ask me, would be the guys that I trained with in residency. One is Italian, Italian American, one's Indian. One's, uh, Indian American, one's, Chinese American, and all of us. Uh, have our own cultural backgrounds. All of us have explored our own cultural heritages, gone back, visited our own different countries.

We all have our own depths. Like all of them have a lot of depth to their character and their nature. Um, I've seen them talk about post, discuss their, um, their [00:57:00] ancestry and where they're from, but when we get together. None of that is in play. It's what our shared experiences were. Con connects you. Yeah.

You know, our trial by fire, like how we survived, you know, what shaped our outlook. And so, um, the depth that we have for our cultural heritage does inform us and make us more resilient in a lot of ways. But when we meet and connect with others, that's not necessarily something that people have to bring to the forefront.

'cause that's not what's necessarily gonna connect. You with somebody else. And so, I mean, maybe I've done that to an extreme, some might say. But on the other hand, I have felt like learning more about others and not necessarily putting my own, uh, self out in front has, has helped me more than hurt me. I guess that's

Sasha Rhee: why I think everyone listening, whether you're like a parent or a child or like a potential future parent, like I think it's very important too.

Be transparent and let your kids know about like [00:58:00] what has shaped you to be the way you are today. Whether it's cultural and or like, you know, environmental, social, political, whatever. Like, I think that's why I plays value on like the. The generation, like I don't neglect, I'm like proud that I'm third generation Korean American, and I think that's because I have a lot of appreciation and I'm very grateful for what you and mom both endured and also experienced.

But I think if I didn't know that, like my relationship with being like Korean American would be very, very different.

Sam Rhee: Agreed. Sasha, thank you so much. That was an awesome conversation. I appreciate it. And uh, good luck this summer in Chicago. Thank

Sasha Rhee: you. I'm

Sam Rhee: gonna try to visit you as many times as I can. Yay.

Thank you.